Voices Part 1
Robert Lawlor
Jay Weidner:
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Let's get right to business. Tonight, it's my pleasure to introduce you to one of my very favorite people, one of the smartest guys in the world. His name is Robert Lawlor.
Robert was one of the founding members of Auroville, Sri Aurobindo's place in India. He wrote the book "Sacred Geometry." He worked with Lucy Lamy who is the stepdaughter of Schwaller de Lubicz, the great Egyptologist and learned a lot of the things that Schwaller was trying to convey.
And then, translated Schwaller's gigantic book, "The Temple of Man" series and of course, he also wrote the great book about the Australian Aborigines, "Voices of the First Day. Robert is in southern Australia, near Tasmania and he's been a recluse for 20 years but he's coming out with a new book in 2010 and a new video series from Sacred Mysteries called the "Sacred Geometry of Time."
And, we're going to talk about that subject in a later date when we get closer to publication of his material. So, I want to just kind of get people introduced to Robert and his amazing scope of ideas. One of the things you wanted to talk about was the paradox of within the modern world of the people who think that the world is one reality.
Robert: Well, I actually came across this idea in researching "The Cycles of Time," particularly the cycle in light of my next book, "The Yuga Cycle," it's the duration... a specific duration of time that according to the Yuga, a whole, very precise influential force field that change or alter human consciousness and the conditions and seduction of the civilization and human culture.
And so, I got kind of suspicious about the idea. Well, are these force fields inherent in the nature of the time duration itself or are they appear to be some other force field that time might hold or actually be in itself.
So, it thought into cosmological question because all of our physics and all of our chemistry basically our scientific outlets a neutral field of progressive and combinations of units and it in itself holds no fields of creative formation or forces that affect the creation and conception and this is completely opposite to what the whole Yuga cycle is about.
So, I started researching this problem or question and in it, I kind of thought the basic idea of paradox. Now, I'll give you a little background. The oldest piece of it there is this enormous paradox at the beginning of creation and in various forms this paradox is depicted by the idea that at the beginning was this total unity and this unity had a desire to reproduce itself in an infinite reproduction of itself.
And so, it achieves this goal, by cutting or wounding itself so that in these philosophies, the beginning of this universe that is, this sprawling universe and diversity that is before our eyes is created by a clarification or self?wounding. So that's the very basic of Egypt and India's philosophy which are ideas that I've been gathering much of the information on my previous researches especially in the field of geometry.
Jay: So, this wounding is really the beginning of the mythos that many religions are based on and also, there's sort of a correlation between people who are great healers and an early wounding.
So, there's this sort of paradox even in the shamanic side of this exploration.
Robert: That's right. And it's belongs to so many cultures who are involved in the rite of sacrificing - including human sacrifice.
Jay: Right. So, we fell in to time when we suffered this original wounding.
Robert: Yeah. We fell into time and into a space that is cloven or segmented. Everything is part of the cutting process, the wounding. There is no other space or time or syntax in which our bodies and minds, have as a habitat, whether we are living or dead tends to space created through this original severance or sacrifice that the unified basic character of the beginning of the presence of the beginning.
Jay: Now, is this similar to the Gnostic view that there was once one light that separated into millions and trillions and quadrillions of little separate lights that are trying to work their way back now to the main light.
Robert: Yeah. Gnosticism was very onto this idea. This is the paradox that explains reality. It is also the basic paradox that Gnosticism carries forward into the Western world.
You're listening to the Smoke and Mirrors Radio Hour, Monday through Friday, six o'clock Pacific Time.
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And, we're back. Here we are on the Smoke and Mirrors Radio Hour. My name is Jay Weidner and we're talking to Robert Lawlor from all the way across the planet, in the Land of Oz.
Robert, you were talking about the paradox. We are all and yet, we are separated and I was wondering... I wanted you to get back to your point but I also wanted to kind of know how this paradox is unfolding today in the modern world and what the evidence is for its, you know, for... what's happening right now.
Robert: That's good. I think I can answer that rather quickly. I wanted to go to G. Spencer Brown reaction to the paradox basically, creation. He said that draw a distinction, call the first distinction... call it the first distinction. Call the space in which it is drawn, a space that is severed for cloven with distinction.
So, I realized that we who are exist as the result of the cosmic paradigm the one that is all that is one, and the severance in space into distinction. We tend to work constantly to overcome or to invert this process that brought the universe into existence, bring back an insight and create relationship [Inaudible 14:27] confrontation and contrast of time and try to find similarities, which is actually the whole basis of our language because it is the fact that these similarities and differences of the basic, the symbolism and of naming.
So, our effort to reestablish the actuality of oneness behind the great diversity and multiplicity is part of what is the forces that are driving us towards to new goals such as one?world government and one language and one God and not realizing that the representation of multiplicity... of the oneness in... that multiplicity is the whole sight of the universe and I think that helps, you know, the United Nations has really very active goal of, we could say the illumined ones or controllers of nations where one?world government is based on not understanding the nature of this paradox between one and all, between unity and diversity.
Jay: Yeah, I think you've nailed it. So, the more that they try to unify, the more that they're actually going to cause it to become more fractious.
Robert: The manifestation of an absolute unity is to withdraw the forces that are sustaining.
Jay: I see. So...
Robert: The Kabbalah has an interesting way of talking about the absolute unity. They call it the invisible face of God and that fits. It is this actual face of God cannot be seen as the all, it cannot be named. There is no aspect or creature that is within the universal creation which is based on the severance because nothing can distinguish itself from that absolute unity.
So, there was a very strong move in the religious or spiritual basis of humanity to not to try to give a name for this aspect of invisible faith, that is something that cannot be distinguished and it cannot become a part of the distinguished faith, distinguishment of faith and time.
However, then there are entities like religion which claimed that they gave a specific name to the all encompassing [Inaudible 18:32] and it is the denial of this original tenets, and additional variance [Inaudible 18:46] understanding of the nature that is being violated by religion who based themselves on a name or would testify ... It is forgotten.
Jay: Wow, that is extremely profound. So, it's that old kind of Taoist maxim that the more you try to fix it, the more broken it gets and that's what they're trying to do with all this unity.
We're going to take a break here for the news. We'll be back. I'm Jay Weidner. You're listening to Smoke and Mirrors Radio Hour every weeknight. Join us.
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And, we're back. Smoke and Mirrors Radio Hour. I'm Jay Weidner. We're talking to Robert Lawlor. We're talking about the paradox. What we're talking about is the more that they try to unify the world, the more we're going to become fractious, the more things are going to fall apart. And, in fact, I can even think it may be even able...
Robert: ...Fear or bring it back as inspiration.
Jay: I see. So, the more that we unify, the more that we almost ensure our own disintegration. In fact, maybe it's a symptom of disintegration to think that the sudden yearning for unity is going to solve our problems.
Robert: Exactly. That's how I thought this out eventually. It is this force in time that leads to us towards the [Inaudible21:01] Now getting back to the absolute unity and its message of reproducing itself. It chose two basic methods.
One is reflection and the other is representation. So, reflection is an image but it's of the actuality, the real presence but it is an inversion of it. A reflection contains only an inversion.
And, the second one is representation. Now a reflection is an image of the actuality or the real present but it is a reversion of it. The second one was representation in that it prevents itself in a form or media that is other than itself.
So, the entirety of that natural and material construct is a reflection. It's only a reflection and a representation and that reflection is an inversion of the actual presence of all contained absolute unity.
So, that means that every reality, whether... or every identity or distinguishment or individual contains an integration of the opposite of everything that it appears to be. So, a thing becomes a unit only in the integration of duality, of opposite. In other words, [Inaudible 23:22] inhabit non?existent, manifest, non?manifest theme of becoming eternity in time creator of cosmos.
They are all an integrated [Inaudible 23:36]. So, this is the basic, for me, of what you call Gnosticism and that belief system has been name, I think it was on the 17th Century by philosophers that as cosmothesism not monothesism.
Jay: Yeah, I think it's... So, there is a... As we go through the Yuga system, through the Hindu Yuga system and we get to the close of the Kali Yuga which is where we are now, we're in a state of high disintegration.
And, in that state of high disintegration, we're trying to find some kind of unity that we think will hold it together but in fact, that is...
Robert: We're trying to create an opposition to it, to the actuality and that opposition we're taking apart... instead of it being the disintegrating we're taking apart the differentiation, the variety... the variation, the specificity. And trying to meld those all into one, one government and one?world order and so...
Jay: And, one way of thinking.
Robert: There's an actuality [Inaudible 25:47] from the confusion between distinguishment and disintegration and it's that misunderstanding that is basic to our politics of today.
Jay: And, really... And really, also, it's a tragedy in front of our eyes because we're losing all of the things that really made us special in the hopes of some vain idea that it's going to unify all of us. In fact, we're just going to end up with one homogenous thing that isn't going to be very interesting at all actually.
Robert: That's right. And, there's, you know, by the hour Vishnu and therefore, various variety, the aspect of one's absolute, unified consciousness and way of being. So, we strive towards unification which we think to be our salvation, it's really part of the keeping and keeping movement toward a finality that's dictated by time.
Jay: Wow, that says it all right there. I couldn't agree more and removing in to these, what I call the concentration of time where time is actually beginning to fold over on itself and minutes are becoming shorter than they were and hours are becoming shorter than they were and we're moving to a place where we could get cascading criseses going, where they could go out of control like a freight train going down on mountainside.
Anyway, you're listening to Smoke and Mirrors. I'm Jay Weidner talking to Robert Lawlor. We'll be back in just a couple of minutes.
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And, this is Smoke and Mirrors. I'm Jay Weidner. We're talking to Robert Lawlor. You know, this Yuga cycle thing is something that I'm going to... becoming to a lot on this show and what's important about understanding the Yuga cycles is that changes your view of reality.
And, here on the West, we've been... had it beaten in to our heads that, you know, we were apes and we evolved and we turned into humans and every minute we're getting better and better and everything is always getting better and better.
But, you know, in reality, things aren't getting better and better, they're getting worse and worse. And, this is a variant with the whole theory of evolution. So, you go out and you try to find out why and we find the Yuga system which basically says that things wind down.
And then, there's a sudden shift where things are taken back up to the top, in the so?called Golden Age and then things began to wind down again. And, when you get to be old enough like I am, you begin to realize that makes a lot more sense than the theory of evolution.
Not that there are things in the theory of evolution that are right, that are scientifically provable. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying is that overriding concept that we're getting better and somehow we're evolving in getting smarter and faster by the moment is just not true.
And so, I think it's just really important that you understand that. When Robert says that the Yuga system, you know, from India is saying that we're now in the twilight or near the end of the Kali Yuga, I think the evidence is all around us, from the decimation of species to the fishing out of the oceans, the loss of topsoil, the deforestation of the entire northern hemisphere and a lot of other things.
Robert, I want to get back to the paradox here. But, the other day, we were talking and you told me something very interesting. I think America should hear it. I asked you about the... in Australia, the news broadcast of the protest against Obama were being shown and you told me that basically, they were saying a whole bunch of racists were marching or something like that. Is that right?
Robert: No, they had on the Australian news an interview with Jimmy Carter who said that the difficulties that Obama is having with his policies, particularly concerning the health program are really, they are just people who are anti?racists.
Jay: Right and...
Robert: He perverted it into a racist quality. He said, I'm from South, he said, I know how these people are and he said, he's just reluctant to accept the policies of Obama are really racist driven.
I think that it's really a dangerous time to be promoting racism to that extent. Not being in America, I just doubt the validity of that. I think that the paradoxical understanding, that it is the disorientation and variety among all the species and the creations of the world that are pleasing to the unity [Inaudible 32:58] and this is really an exploration of the inner potential, creative potentiality of an absolute one.
But, I wanted to go next to what is, I think, is a very important aspect of our thinking and also a mistake as our comprehension which is due to the twilight circumstances and lack of illumination in our thought. That is the fact that once we understand that the universe is only a reflection and representation of the actual reality behind creative [Inaudible 33:59].
And then, we have moved to mistakes that reflection for that reality and that reality is an all encompassing complete and total full consciousness and that's what the unity is and [Inaudible 34:26] wrote a poem about this that makes the whole problem very real and very associated because, you know, actually when we approach a mirror we go through the same thing we almost forget that the presence of our actuality and, we take on and project the reality into our reflection.
And as we scrub and shave and pinch and pluck and so on, we really think that this whole activity is occurring with the reflection and the reflection has a powerful way of pulling our sense of the real into what it is not. It's a reflection of the real.
If we have enough time, I would like to read this poem. Because it's a very way of stating this paradox of accepting the reflection, which is a inversion of reality.
Jay: Please, go ahead.
Robert: How are we doing on time, Jay?
Jay: We're doing fine. Go ahead, Robert.
Robert: OK. The poem begins, while he stops to quench his thirst, another thirst grew in him and as he drank, he was enchanted by this beautiful reflection that he saw. And, remember the first reflective surface, the first mirror was the surface of still water.
He fell in love with an insubstantial hope, mistaking a mere shadow for a real body. Spellbound by his own self, he remained there motionless and sick for over [Inaudible 36:36] admiring all the features for which he was himself admired and unwittingly desired he himself and wants himself the object of his own approval and desire. I'm speaking in thoughts and self kindling the flame within which you [Inaudible 37:08] that alludes you.
The thing you are seeing does not exist. Only turn aside and you will view what you want. What you see is but a shadow cast by your reflection. In itself, it is nothing. It comes with you. It last while you are there. It will go when you go. [Inaudible 37:35].
This is the sort of hypnotic, magnetism of the mirror image over the reality and we are an aspect of this imaging, per se. The whole of the natural world and the nature of the universe is simply only the reflection of something that's really is an fundamental nature, absolute consciousness of we've become magnetized, hypnotized by this illusion of the material in physical world, being the basis of reality and this being the basic mistake of what we called physical science and material philosophy out of what you were just talking about, Darwin. Darwinism is the result of that.
Jay: Yes, that's right and even if Darwinism was true, it probably shouldn't be discussed in the open because it tends to denigrate the human condition within the spirit of the human being who's hearing the information. And generally, it's the root of political Fascism and communism and the Nazism and all of this "isms" came out of Darwinism which gained racism a scientific reason to be and you know, I can't overemphasize, you know, the damage that that theory has done to the world.
Robert: ... you know, he said that... I don't have the exact phrase in front of me but he said after his travels and encountering the indigenous people and how they distinguished themselves through self?decoration. He said, I'd rather be a descendant of an ape or a chimpanzee than be the descendants of these people.
Jay: Yup.
Robert: I mean this whole thing was white, Anglo?Saxon racist thought and it is elitist.
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Robert: Survival of the fittest that's the elite [Inaudible 40:59] or maintain their superiority and their survival.
Jay: And the richest. And, with that, that will be the end of our first show here on Smoke and Mirrors. That was Robert Lawlor giving us his opinion of Darwinism and my name is Jay Weidner.
I will be here tomorrow night which John Major Jenkins. Got a great show coming up every night, Monday through Friday, six to seven PM Pacific, nine to 10 PM on the East Coast, all over the world on the Internet, on the Global Star satellite. Come tomorrow night, listen. Thanks. Good night, Robert.
Transcription by CastingWords